bem

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Hi,

I watched Charles Winter DVD a couple of days ago. There it was DeBolt "Acrobat" biplane - and the funny thing was that I saw an unbuilt kit of Acrobat on buybay not long ago. It is amazing that these old kits can survive into our days.

/Bo

pimmnz

Hey Freebird, thanks for putting up those pages, just goes to show that things haven't changed that much, and those guys were wanting just a bit of fun to add to their flying. Mind, I doubt I could find a club round here that would put that much energy into organising such an event, nor could they find somewhere similar to fly it. The good old days? Might be something it...
Evan.

kingaltair

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Yes, thanks Rich for spotting that article on the Detroit Invitational...it definitely belongs in this thread. I think I HAVE that issue at home, (I was looking at advertisments just the other night), but I haven't taken the time to read through them one by one. I wonder what other "stuff" is out there. Did the magazines cover the event in other years of the Detroit Invitational?

Duane

kingaltair

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Speaking of Detroit Invitationals, I still have the last of Al Taffs's photos of the 1965 Detroit Invitational, this time highlighting Jimmy Grier. As a young teen, I remember seeing Jimmy and his black, white, and olive green Taurus with the inverted engine. Jimmy stood out to me, not only because he was the only black pilot, but because he was such a good, accomplished, and smooth flier. As shown in Chuck's video, Jimmy's Taurus really "moved", and in an era of relatively abrupt and jerky plane movement due to the radios of the time, he had a very "fluid" flying style. In the pylon event, he knew how to cut a fast, sharp turn.

In addition to everything else Jimmy seems to be universally liked by everyone I've ever talked to when his name came up...that is quite a feat in and of itself. Reportedly when asked why his planes were all the olive/white/and black, he said he had "...gallons of it and had to use it up." Jimmy's Taurus'a color scheme was very distinctive and was "sharp-looking". Although personally I would have avoided the olive, the way he did it, it looked good.

Now here are Al's two photos of Jimmy, and we'll see if we can find any more among my Dad's slides and add them later. Notice Tom and Helen in the background, (Tom with the mic, and Helen in the white dress and sunglasses). Another thing you can't miss is the angle of the plane as it is "barreling" right at the camera. This is my favorite picture. It took a lot of courage to take this shot. [X(]

Thanks again Al for the trouble you went to to send these photos to me.

Duane

bem

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Hi,

As I understand it 1965 was last year Detroit Invitational was held. Anyone know the reason why there was no more?
Had it anything to do with that Tom Brett (and Ed Kazmirsky) got other interests after 1965 - Brett taking Commercial airplane license, buying a Cessna 172 and also started to build full scale a Pitts Special (and Ed was more involved in the company he worked in)?
In 1965Detroit Invitational, had most folks switched over to proportional or was majoritystill using reeds?

/Bo

kingaltair

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If I remember correctly, Tom became active in full-scale flying in 1966 as you say and a new president of RCCD was chosen. I can ask Helen how long the Detroit Invitationals continued...I think they continued past 1965. Ed was one of the pilots invited, so his being absent would have nothing to do with when the RCCD Invitatationals ended.

Duane

Free Bird

When I was a kid back in the late 60's, I remember going to the large pattern meet with my Dad (I was his caller) that was held at Wright Patterson AFB. I remember going twice from Connecticut. One of the highlights was meeting some of the "big names" that normally didn't make it to the east coast, one of those that I remember meeting was Jimmy Grier. To this day I do remember my Dad and I talking to him and the color scheme of his model always stuck with me.

BTW - my Dad flew a Hartman Zeus with a ST.56. I wish I had some pictures of the plane. Those are some good memories.

FB

kingaltair

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Here is some information from the RCCD web site under "history" discussing the Detroit Invitationals. It doesn't specically mention, however when the last Detroit Invitational was held:

The club field was on the old “Wings Airport� and it was there that all of the Detroit Invitational's were
held. The club members did all of the work on the field and developed a first class airstrip. We stayed on this field until 1971. ....The following is an excerpt from an article written by the clubs first
president, Ernie Kratzet, and featured in the September 1962 issue of
“Model Airplane News�.

“Sponsors call it the PGA of Radio Control Contesting, it could well be, when a rundown is made of those invited. A virtual who’s who of mult-channel, the best device to separate the men from the men, not the boys�.
On the week following Labor Day, traditionally the “Cream of the Crop� of RC flyers in the United States and Canada gather in Detroit for what has become to be known as � The Experts Contest�. For the past three years it has been formally called “The Detroit Invitational� and prior to that “The Great Lakes Meet�. The entry list is determined by invitation from the RCCD. By limiting
the entry list to about 20 of the top flyers it was felt that a truly dream contest would result.�

This was the tenth anniversary of the event. The following list of previous winners indicates the wide geographical spread:
1953 - JIM PEPINO - LONDON, ONTARIO
1954 - L.D. CRISP - PERRYSVILLE, INDIANA
1955 - HAROLD DEBOLT - BUFFALO NEW YORK
1956 - JIM GALL - TOLEDO, OHIO
1957 - ED KAZMARSKI - CALUMET CITY, ILLINOIS
1958 - ED KAZMARSKI - CALUMET CITY, ILLINOIS
1959 - ED KECK - ROCHESTER, NEW YORK
1960 - BOB DUNHAM - LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
1961 - ED KAZMARSKI - CALUMET CITY, ILLNOIS
An interesting fact was brought out in the article that concerned the judging. Not only was the flying of top notch caliber but the judging was first rate. This was due to club training and a system of judging that became to be known as “the Detroit system.� “The system� evolved from the first invitational, the first in the country, when the 25 invited participants flew using no set rules or patterns. Rules, patterns and judging were made up as the event progressed. Two judges were used and their scores were
given by hand signals to the announcer who would immediately announce the total for all to hear.

The invitational didn’t just happen. It evolved from some thirty contests over a ten year period, including two national contests. The trophy for the contest was a perpetual trophy and was the property of RCCD. The last winner kept it in his possession until the next contest.

kingaltair

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Getting back to Jimmy Grier, I went through all my father's old slides and finally found the one of Jimmy carrying his Taurus and talking to some people as he's walking. I'll try to get that picture scanned in and posted soon. I also found another of Ed Keck, (I think it's him and his plane), with it inverted and working on it, (presumably).

Duane

onewasp

_________________________________________________

Are you certain that wasn't his Anonymous. He flew it in his "specially mixed green scheme".

Yes, it looked Taurus based but so did most everything else at that time.
Simply a first hand input from the past. FWIW

kingaltair

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No I'm not certain....you could very well be right because, (now that I think of it), it was more "sleek looking" than the standard Taurus, (although it DOES look a lot like a Taurus). It also had an inverted engine. Like I think I mentioned, tre are a lot of good "moving footage" of Jimmy's plane in Chuck's video. It was exceptionally smooth and fast, (especially for the time).

Could you talk more about the Anonymous?

BTW....I'm having some trouble getting that picture scanned in, but I'll get it by tomorrow. Unfortunately, the way he is carrying the plane doesn't show it off all that well, (but at least it's not moving). I just looked at it as closely as possible with a magnifying glass and it definitely does NOT have a Taurus tail. The rudder is nearly vertical. Good catch...I'm pretty sure you're right; I just never took the time to take a close look at it.

Duane

bem

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Hi,

Some captures from Charles Winter DVD of Jimmy Grier and his green-white-black plane.
Seems rather simlar to aTaurus with some modifications. Jimmy's plane seems perhaps to have a higher fuselage, the fin seems to havedifferent shape compared a standard Taurus and it has an inverted engine. Iadd some Top Flite Taurus pictures for comparison.

/Bo

kingaltair

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Way to go Bo. I've got to learn how to do that.[8D] Not quite as sharp as a photo would be, but it illustrates the point. Notice the big barn in the background. The field was set quite a way back from the road.

I'd still like to hear more about his plane.
Thanks

kingaltair

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I received a real nice PM from Onewasp about his ideas regarding Jimmy Grier's, (from Chicago) airplane. They were his opinions, and as such, I can't post them here without his approval, but I thought they were great, and I hope he posts them himself. In the meantime, I'm going to post a "generic" version. I will also put it on the Taurus thread because I think this particular topic hasn't had enough attention.

Originally when I was referring to Jimmy's plane I called it a "Taurus". It has that general Taurus look, but when you take a closer look at it, you can see all the differences. This is the point...THE TAURUS was the SPRINGBOARD for MANY OTHER PATTERN DESIGNS. They were modified Taurus models. Let me illustrate with Jimmy's plane, and another from Howard Thombs. Howard's plane was essentially a Taurus with swept wings. I remember this plane doing a split-S right into a landing with seemingly no corrections...so cool for a young kid to witness. I think Howard's paint scheme is simple yet effective...as Chuck's video points out, Howard had at least two of these models painted the same, only with different numbers.

Once you had the basic Taurus, (which was such a revolutionary design in 1962), and its tremendous success, it was only natural for others to want to "play" with the basic design to improve upon it, or to give it a certain "look", or more simply for each pilot to be able to give it his own special "touches". When I modified my Taurus in 1981, I did the same thing...the Taurus was just such a natural to serve as the basic design to which all sorts of modifications and exerimentations were made. The nose on my Taurus was cowled in, which gives the appearance of a longer nose moment, (it IS a little longer). Jimmy did the same with his inverted engine plane. Ed himself made mods with each Taurus he built...it has been esstablished that he never built two exactly the same way. Look at Ed's Taurus II with its tapered wing, and you se Ed's OWN experiments. Jimmy did the same with his plane. That tapered wing became the favored wing design and the new standard for future pattern planes.

Duane

Michaelj2k

[/quote]

Here is some information from the RCCD web site under ''history'' discussing the Detroit Invitationals. It doesn't specically mention, however when the last Detroit Invitational was held:

[i][b]The club field was on the old “Wings Airport� and it was there that all of the Detroit Invitational's were held. The club members did all of the work on the field and developed a first class airstrip. We stayed on this field until 1971.

[/quote]

Is there a location for Wings Airport?

kingaltair

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When you say "location", do you mean like a Google Earth"-type location? Wings Airport was a large field with a big barn near the 18 Mi Rd entrance. You can see it in some of the pictures, and the DVD. The area was large enough to handle small planes. It was commonly known as the 18 Mile and Mound Road field, (8 Mile Rd is the outer boundry of Detroit).

Just to see what it looks like now, I went on Google Earth and got an image. The area is now a subdivision, (that "horseshoe" looking thing and all the houses in and around it. The field entrance was off of 18 Mi Rd a ways, (1/4 mi) to the left of the intersection, (which is in the right hand side of the picture), and below 18 Mi Rd. That area was all open field back then. It was a very nice field, and the only one I knew when I was part of that club.

Duane

Michaelj2k

Paul Freeman's website "Abandoned and Little Know Airfields" website traces the history of a large number of general aviation airfields that have disappeared over the years. Although there is no information on Wings Airport, Big Beaver airport was in the vinicity. http://www.airfields-freeman.com/MI/...etroit_NW.html Scroll down to Big Beaver and you will see Wings Airport in a scan of a 1949 sectional chart.

kingaltair

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The puzzle of Detroit area road names.

Michigan road names, (at least some of those in the Detroit area), are a little quirky, at least it seems that way to me. First, there are the "Mile Roads", (roughly a mile apart), radiating out, and starting for some reason at 5 Mile Rd, (I think it is the distance from some point in Detroit...I never actually knew where). These "Mile Roads" run east to west and the convention is the same within Detroit and into the suburbs surrounding Detroit.

Like I said earlier, 8 Mile Rd is the outer limits of Detroit, (there is also a road called "Outer Drive", meaning that at some time long ago, that road was "way out there". The "Mile Roads" keep increasing northward out of Detroit, and go all the way out to the upper 20s, or lower 30s...it's a little hard to tell because some of the roads have alternate names as you will see.

OK...so 9 Mile is still 9 MIle, 10 Mile is 10 Mile etc etc up to 15 Mile, which also has the name Maple Road. 16 Mile is also known as BIG BEAVER, (note the tie in to your earlier post), 17 Mile is Wattles Rd, 18 Mile is Long Lake Rd, (I think), and I don't know after that because 21 Mile is still 21 Mile, 22 Mile, 23 Mile 24 Mile, 25 Mile etc.

I used to live between 22 Mile and 23 Mile Roads and Van Dyke...just a few miles north and east of the field...kind of the far north suburbs of Detroit.

Are you totally bored with all this? Sorry, I know this doesn't have anything to do with Tom and Helen, (except they were both very familiar with all these weird naming conventions). It's just strange, and it dawned on me just now how weird it is, since when I lived in Michigan, I didn't think much of it...that's just the way it was.

Anyway, when you said "Big Beaver Airport", I knew that the airport was two miles south, and probably west of Wings Airport, located on 18 Mile Rd, (Long Lake Rd)..

So much for the geography lesson.

Duane

Michaelj2k

Now I know how to get to Pete Waters place! Not that I'm actually going there so don't worry Pete.

My reason for the web site reference is maybe track down some information on Wings Airport. It may ring a bell with some folks and possibly flush out some new, unseen pictures. One never knows until one tries.

kingaltair

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If you don't have Chuck's DVD yet, you should get it if you are the slightest bit interested in the roots of RC pattern, (and I assume anyone on this forum would be). [8D] There are a lot of views of Wings Airport as it was during the Invitationals including the big barn etc.

I'm amazed people care about old airports in Michigan...what is the purpose of a book like that...a way to find alternative landing sites in case of engine trouble or something?

Michaelj2k

I have Chuck's DVD; it is an awesome compilation of RC as it was back then.

The Abandoned Airfields website is a documentation of many of the Mom and Pop airports that were started in the golden age of aviation up until the time they were swallowed up by progress. Many of these fields hosted model aircraft activity; in fact, is was welcomed. I'm sure that there are many of us out there who have flown from one of these places sometime in the past.

kingaltair

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Everyone...Helen has been busy, but she has been following the thread from afar, (Michigan), and has just checked in with me with some interesting first-hand information. I'll just pass on what she says:

As you know, I thoroughly enjoyed the DVD, and let Chuck know right away, no delay there. It was great to see TBX roll away and watching the Movietone newsreel was fun. Like you said, watching Tom "play" the Orbit transmitter was like playing the piano, which he also did. The commentator spent about 30 minutes with us, and like Chuck, he asked me to walk away so he could get a shot of our club jacket with the wing emblem.

As to the end of the invitationals, as I told you on the phone I checked with several old-timers and none can rercall when or why they ended as such. Perhaps the contest calendar for 1966 and 1967 in Model Aviation could give a clue. They were always in September. Our collection of magazines were damaged when the sump pump failed just before Tom Passed, and they were thrown out.

Thanks to Michael for the airport website. I started my flying career in 1966 at McKinley, about 3 miles from home and when my instructor moved to Big Beaver we moved the plane there. We got to know Annie quite well. She was a character, but also a diamond in the rough. Her father turned their bean field into the airport in 1946. Her brother and instructors kept the place going until she took over. She was a mail carrier until then. When our modeling friends lost planes due to equipment failure, which was frequently, they'd go to Big Beaver and hire Annie or instructors, sometimes private pilots, to aid in the search. Tom did it one time when one of his models and a club members flew off.

I mentioned in my first article in 2006 that it was quite common to have somebody yell out "I've lost it...while raising the transmitter above his head, (presumably to get the antenna closer to the plane...I don't think that helped much, but people did it). They would start running across the field for a ways until they realized it was useless. The planes often didn't crash, (right away at least), but would fly away. A bunch of guys not flying would jump into their cars and chase the plane forming a caravan to look for the lost aircraft.....Duane

She had her own private Luscomb which she kept to herself and one or two others and two Champs for instruction. In December of '67 we moved the plane to City Airport in Detroit for paved parking. Big Beaver tie downs were sometimes bogged down in mud or snow, and we liked to fly when we wanted. In 1970 Anna still had no city water, and only an outhouse. The city kept after her about that for another year or two. She brought fresh water from home every day to make instant coffee, tea or soup. The office in the Quanset hut hangar was so small that only about three people could be inside. In the late 60's and early 70's flying really took off and she finally bought a Cessna 150 for students. By then she had two full time and two part time instructors. I know the airspace was crowded at times. At City airport sometimes we were stacked up seventh to land, and had to call in way out at 18 mile to get in line. She finally had to comply with sanitation rules, and decided to build a new office, which I heard was very nice. I was past there yesterday on my way to I 75 and didn't recognize it at all. It is like an industrial park with offices and buildings of all sizes. Progress, they say. At least the city of Troy is happy, because for all those years the property was taxed at the farm tax rate.

Helen

kingaltair

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Continuing with Helen Brett's comments...this time about Wings Airport, home of the Radio Control Club of Detroit during the "glory years" of the Detroit Invitationals. Additional background information about the airport at 18 Mile and Mound Roads:

I don't know the story on Wings Airport. There were no structures other than the barn and only a North/South sod runway, so perhaps it was an auxiliary field in a previous life, too. It was a lovely field for us, and we had a good relationship with the owner of the property. Did you know that a family was renting the barn, and lived upstairs? The father of that family was the pilot who took off in the DVD in the middle of our meet. He had come down to our tent and asked for a break so he could get off. I think he kept the plane at BB and just flew in and out. He took a lot of stuff from us, (the crowds when meets were held, the dust from cars pulling in and out, noise and erratic planes, etc. but rarely complained unless someone flew too close to the barn), which you know was a good distance from our flying site. When we left it became this huge Mobile Home Park.

Thanks to Free Bird for the 1964 Invitational article. I read the whole thing and found a very interesting tid-bit. Shown on page 64, the last paragraph in the center column, we have a favorite to this website star. The obstreperous Chuck Winter and his jet aircraft. I kid you not, that was Chuck, just ask him. It was a highlight and was very thrilling to the crowd. Good job Chuck!

Also thanks to Jeff Walker for the website for a solution to my English Cd or DVD from our friend Stuart Foster. I'll assign that task to my son-in-law or my brainiac grandsons. It is too bad that the three grandchildren were born after Tom passed away. but Jenny and Brett got to see the plane in the museum when it was in Reston.

Take care, Duane and keep in touch......You know now I check in on the thread often, and enjoy all of the remarks and attention given to Tom's planes.

Helen

crankpin

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Need address for the DVD. Thanks. I have a couple of picture's here of Jimmy, have to find and scan, will post. I remember him coming to the GCRC Invitational put on by John Maloney. He had Super Tigre's mounted inverted, usually had an idle problem. Man could he fly. I am sure he was using Orbit, went from reed's to propo.

Vince
Hobe Sound, FL

kingaltair

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Exactly right...yet he could really fly...fast and smooth. Chuck's DVD shows that really well.

You need to PM CHARLES WINTER with your contact information and address, and include a few bucks for the postage. He posted on page 16 of this thread.

Duane