The Poop has hit the fan !
#251
Besides the AMA EC running rampant with their own agendas, I believe this is the second major thing in the way of change. I believe the membership has the ABILITY to have the stones to make necessary changes, we are just too segmented and disengaged to make much of a difference. Unfortunately, only about 6% of the membership participate in elections. This, coupled with the fact that the Good Ole Boys make it extremely difficult to access the data that should be very transparent, makes for a challenging environment for change.
I would venture that if every AMA club would review the figures that Franklin has been able to obtain in their monthly club meetings, that we would see a dramatic rise in voter participation AND would see the votes swing away from the GOB Network.
Regards,
Astro
I would venture that if every AMA club would review the figures that Franklin has been able to obtain in their monthly club meetings, that we would see a dramatic rise in voter participation AND would see the votes swing away from the GOB Network.
Regards,
Astro
#252
BTW, 2016 IRS 990 shows that in 2016 the AMA gave $300K to the foundation. Only have the foundation give approx $150K of it back. Interesting. Had to ask myself why would they do that? Then it dawned on me. It takes majority vote of EC to spend money on something. But if the money comes from the foundation, the foundation gets to tell AMA how it must be spent. Totally unaccountable to members ....
Look at the first chart, Foundation income and assets look pretty good right? Well, second chart is what it looks like w/o $300,000 plus up and the Foundation give back. Suddenly the foundation doesn't look like it's doing so well does it? (data comes from AMA and AMA foundation IRS990's)
Last edited by franklin_m; 12-23-2018 at 02:25 PM.
#253
Well, Guys, you can`t argue with the facts, and there they are in black and white. Thanks to franklin m, Appowner and others to researching and waking us up to the fact that something stinks in Muncie. For my part I can say I have the "stones" to vote in every election I can, whether it in the AMA or my state, local, county or federal elections. Although it doesn`t require "stones" to check off boxes. I am not a very active member in my club, but I wonder what would happen if I were to try to rally support in order to try and shake things up in Muncie?
I am one of the AMA members who feel like they are getting ripped off, but I am not going to quit the hobby and there`s really no place for me to fly my bigger glow stuff than at the club flying field, which is only 15 minutes away.
So what to do? Maybe a form letter written by someone way more qualified than me, Appowner, franklin m?, that we could print off, sign and send in to Muncie?
I am one of the AMA members who feel like they are getting ripped off, but I am not going to quit the hobby and there`s really no place for me to fly my bigger glow stuff than at the club flying field, which is only 15 minutes away.
So what to do? Maybe a form letter written by someone way more qualified than me, Appowner, franklin m?, that we could print off, sign and send in to Muncie?
#254
Well, Guys, you can`t argue with the facts, and there they are in black and white. Thanks to franklin m, Appowner and others to researching and waking us up to the fact that something stinks in Muncie. For my part I can say I have the "stones" to vote in every election I can, whether it in the AMA or my state, local, county or federal elections. Although it doesn`t require "stones" to check off boxes. I am not a very active member in my club, but I wonder what would happen if I were to try to rally support in order to try and shake things up in Muncie?
I am one of the AMA members who feel like they are getting ripped off, but I am not going to quit the hobby and there`s really no place for me to fly my bigger glow stuff than at the club flying field, which is only 15 minutes away.
So what to do? Maybe a form letter written by someone way more qualified than me, Appowner, franklin m?, that we could print off, sign and send in to Muncie?
I am one of the AMA members who feel like they are getting ripped off, but I am not going to quit the hobby and there`s really no place for me to fly my bigger glow stuff than at the club flying field, which is only 15 minutes away.
So what to do? Maybe a form letter written by someone way more qualified than me, Appowner, franklin m?, that we could print off, sign and send in to Muncie?
#255
Banned
Well, Guys, you can`t argue with the facts, and there they are in black and white. Thanks to franklin m, Appowner and others to researching and waking us up to the fact that something stinks in Muncie. For my part I can say I have the "stones" to vote in every election I can, whether it in the AMA or my state, local, county or federal elections. Although it doesn`t require "stones" to check off boxes. I am not a very active member in my club, but I wonder what would happen if I were to try to rally support in order to try and shake things up in Muncie?
I am one of the AMA members who feel like they are getting ripped off, but I am not going to quit the hobby and there`s really no place for me to fly my bigger glow stuff than at the club flying field, which is only 15 minutes away.
So what to do? Maybe a form letter written by someone way more qualified than me, Appowner, franklin m?, that we could print off, sign and send in to Muncie?
I am one of the AMA members who feel like they are getting ripped off, but I am not going to quit the hobby and there`s really no place for me to fly my bigger glow stuff than at the club flying field, which is only 15 minutes away.
So what to do? Maybe a form letter written by someone way more qualified than me, Appowner, franklin m?, that we could print off, sign and send in to Muncie?
I did the letter thing some 25-30 years ago. My entire club joined Sport Fliers in addition to AMA. AMA didn't care and responded with threats to our charter.
Being retired I'm no longer up to writing polite letters. I am not PC. I tend to speak my mind in the street language most these people seem to prefer and understand.
#257
I wonder how this plan is working out? Think we might be getting a report from AMA?
https://www.modelaircraft.org/progra...entive-program
https://www.modelaircraft.org/progra...entive-program
Last edited by fliers1; 12-29-2018 at 05:45 AM.
#258
Banned
I wonder how this plan is working out? Think we might be getting a report from AMA?
https://www.modelaircraft.org/progra...entive-program
https://www.modelaircraft.org/progra...entive-program
Not like the AMA to keep a success story secret. Therefore, I suspect the opposite.
I would suspect the vast majority of people who walk into an RC hobby shop are already aware of their options and have made their decisions. On the flip side, those who purchase their drones via impulse at Wal Mart or similar, I doubt the store, at the cashier level is even aware of this program if they'er even aware of the AMA.
I suspect someone sold this idea for the great surge in membership it would produce. At a potential cost of 1/3 of AMA revenue. Where the reality is, it's just some ill-engineered fluff intended to con the members into believing Muncie is actually doing something. Another waste of time, money and resources.
#259
My Feedback: (29)
I wonder how this plan is working out? Think we might be getting a report from AMA?
https://www.modelaircraft.org/progra...entive-program
https://www.modelaircraft.org/progra...entive-program
It would be nice to get some actual feedback about this and not just another heavily bias opinion. I had already planned on visiting my local hobby shop today and will speak to the owner about this. Back when I was managing a hobby shop most kit boxes came with AMA pamphlets in them. No doubt that AMA was providing the pamphlets for them. As Great Planes started buying up companies I saw this seemingly stop. Maybe there was a connection, maybe just coincidence. Most airplanes at that time required a developed flying field so one way or another guys got turned onto a club. Unfortunately the clubs don't support the shops very well. That aspect I never really understood, I always believed the clubs and shops working together to promote the hobby would have been a win-win for both.
As far as a hobby shop getting a kick kick back from the AMA, I think it would be a great idea if the shop were able to sell the AMA membership right there and then. Have the customer walk out of the store with their card. Maybe add a 5.00 fee for this service. It gets guys their AMA right away and it has the potential to increase foot traffic in the store. Again a Win-win. It would also be nice if the AMA would send out packets to new members that included information about clubs and retailers in their area. Bottom line here is that I feel we all ( The Hobbyist, retailers, clubs and AMA ) need to be working together to promote our hobby.
#260
It would be nice to get some actual feedback about this and not just another heavily bias opinion. I had already planned on visiting my local hobby shop today and will speak to the owner about this. Back when I was managing a hobby shop most kit boxes came with AMA pamphlets in them. No doubt that AMA was providing the pamphlets for them. As Great Planes started buying up companies I saw this seemingly stop. Maybe there was a connection, maybe just coincidence. Most airplanes at that time required a developed flying field so one way or another guys got turned onto a club. Unfortunately the clubs don't support the shops very well. That aspect I never really understood, I always believed the clubs and shops working together to promote the hobby would have been a win-win for both.
As far as a hobby shop getting a kick kick back from the AMA, I think it would be a great idea if the shop were able to sell the AMA membership right there and then. Have the customer walk out of the store with their card. Maybe add a 5.00 fee for this service. It gets guys their AMA right away and it has the potential to increase foot traffic in the store. Again a Win-win. It would also be nice if the AMA would send out packets to new members that included information about clubs and retailers in their area. Bottom line here is that I feel we all ( The Hobbyist, retailers, clubs and AMA ) need to be working together to promote our hobby.
I know you see the value in membership but I submit that many, most especially the AMA EC, needs to face the fact that most people do not see the value. And "telling them about it" over and over hasn't convinced them so far, so not sure why doing more of the same in the form of pamphlets and a card in their wallet will produce a differnet result.
I maintain the best reason for AMA membership is access to the local flying field. But that's only a value for people that "need" or "want" a local field. For the guy with his kid in the local park, they could care less. For the guy with a kid that's trying to fit this into a schedule that involves baseball, soccer, drama, etc., the distance to the field is an issue. And lastly, even IF they're still with you at this point, are they willing to pay for access to the field if it involves an additional cost?
In my case, that's $100 above and beyond AMA. Well, I've got a garage full of 40-75 size stuff that I can't fly in the park. Yet I dropped my membership and they've sat. Why? 20 minutes each way to the field, rough grass that's hard on anything smaller than 20cc models, and time spent waiting for 3D guys to stop hovering in the middle of the runway. Nope. I can save the money, walk to a park 5 minutes away, and make more flights.
My point is, AMA needs to find / create MORE value for the money than they have now. That said, AMA seems to be hanging their hat on getting a waiver to the 400 foot in class G if at AMA field. First, that's far from certain, as commercial users aren't going to like it. But even if they get it, those people are largely already flying at AMA fields now. We'r e not talking vast numbers of new members. I submit that the overwhelming number of folks are more like me, perfectly happy to fly smaller stuff close to home and have no problem with the 400 foot restriction.
#261
Banned
#262
My Feedback: (29)
Both of you claim that most R/C pilots are like yourselves and fly from a local park. Do you have any evidence of that? Used to be that occasionally I would see someone flying a model in a park or schoolyard. Not so much anymore. I regularly visit 3 club fields locally and usually there are 10-20 guys on a weekend. On my off Fridays I usually see 8-12 guys at the field. From my perspective there are more guys flying at club sites. Not scientific but that is what I see. Mutirotor operators not included in this mix. They for the most part are enjoying their hobby as photographers and as such have no use for AMA or club membership. Their goal is pictures, not flying for the most part.
#263
All I have to do is walk into any of the few remaining LHSs and see nothing but foamies and park fliers and that kind of says it all. I haven't seen any wood kits, other than Guillows stick and tissue planes, for several years. I've watched Tower cutting back on kits over the past few years as well, prior to the bankruptcy. They were offering more and more ARFs and park flyers and few and fewer kits. Seems to me that, if those are what are being offered, that's where the public will spend their money and won't be looking at the AMA to get access to flying fields that they don't need to use
Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 12-29-2018 at 02:25 PM.
#264
My Feedback: (29)
So you are saying that the big box distributor that pushed cheap ARF models right into bankruptcy is the business model that should be followed? Take a closer look and you will see that in the last 5 years there have been a number of cottage type kit manufacturers spring up. Three of them alone are doing reproduction classic pattern kits. EBay is flooded with wood kits and judging by the prices they are in demand. For those who have Facebook there are dozens of groups centered around building R/C models. I would suggest visiting some AMA clubs to see what it actually being flown, your local hobby shop is not a good indicator as they are selling very little of what shows up at the flying fields. A good example is my own hobby room. Although somewhat a disaster, is there anything you see that came out of a hobby shop?
Last edited by speedracerntrixie; 12-29-2018 at 02:47 PM.
#265
Both of you claim that most R/C pilots are like yourselves and fly from a local park. Do you have any evidence of that? Used to be that occasionally I would see someone flying a model in a park or schoolyard. Not so much anymore. I regularly visit 3 club fields locally and usually there are 10-20 guys on a weekend. On my off Fridays I usually see 8-12 guys at the field. From my perspective there are more guys flying at club sites. Not scientific but that is what I see. Mutirotor operators not included in this mix. They for the most part are enjoying their hobby as photographers and as such have no use for AMA or club membership. Their goal is pictures, not flying for the most part.
#266
My Feedback: (29)
I agree that membership is down, revenue is down. Yes there could be some adjustments made. I do not agree on your reasons as to why membership is down. There have always been guys that do not care for the club atmosphere. That hasn't changed. What has changed is the popularity of the hobby. What can the AMA possibly do to make the hobby more popular? I don't see that aspect of our situation landing on the AMA. Blame Tower Hobbies, Horizon Hobbies for that one. They established monopolies that drove the local hobby shops out of business. Without hobby shops to promote the hobby what do we have? Now keep in mind that you would like me to value your experience and I would ask the same of you. I have been in this hobby chest deep for 41 years, 15 of those years were in the retail, wholesale and manufacturing side of the hobby. I have seen dips in participation before. If you really want the hobby to flourish you need to promote. You need to mentor. Have you done either of those lately?
#267
And now , for something completely different , , , , Howz about a nice Spektrum bonfire ?!?!?!? This was the Spektrum ad in the most recent Model Aviation , now , I'm all for being just as festive as the next guy , might have even said "Merry Christmas" to a stranger or two here or there once or twice in my lifetime , , BUT , the last thing that makes me think Christmas or that gives me the warm & fuzzies about the reliability of my control system is visions of a bonfire in my radio dancing in my head.....
Gee now I can't wait to see what the Spektrum New Year's ad looks like , Hmm , anyone ever seen a drunken TX ?
Gee now I can't wait to see what the Spektrum New Year's ad looks like , Hmm , anyone ever seen a drunken TX ?
Last edited by init4fun; 12-29-2018 at 05:41 PM.
#269
I agree that membership is down, revenue is down. Yes there could be some adjustments made. I do not agree on your reasons as to why membership is down. There have always been guys that do not care for the club atmosphere. That hasn't changed. What has changed is the popularity of the hobby. What can the AMA possibly do to make the hobby more popular? I don't see that aspect of our situation landing on the AMA.
Now keep in mind that you would like me to value your experience and I would ask the same of you. I have been in this hobby chest deep for 41 years, 15 of those years were in the retail, wholesale and manufacturing side of the hobby. I have seen dips in participation before. If you really want the hobby to flourish you need to promote. You need to mentor. Have you done either of those lately?
#270
My Feedback: (29)
Paragraph 1, just what do you think the AMA should be doing to promote the hobby?
Paragraph 2. That is just the monopoly that I am talking about. In your example for the LHS to sell you that Blade helicopter he would have had to drop down to a 10% above cost price. How would you expect any business to survive on that? Yes I do blame the consumers somewhat for that, like you most only care about price. Service means very little until the day you need it.
paragraph 3. I didn't say you HAD to do anything, I simply asked. It astounds me that somone such as you who served to protect my freedom of speech along with every other Americans now fights so hard to squash my freedom of speech. FACT! I have just the same right to experess my opinions here as you and your supporters!
Paragraph 2. That is just the monopoly that I am talking about. In your example for the LHS to sell you that Blade helicopter he would have had to drop down to a 10% above cost price. How would you expect any business to survive on that? Yes I do blame the consumers somewhat for that, like you most only care about price. Service means very little until the day you need it.
paragraph 3. I didn't say you HAD to do anything, I simply asked. It astounds me that somone such as you who served to protect my freedom of speech along with every other Americans now fights so hard to squash my freedom of speech. FACT! I have just the same right to experess my opinions here as you and your supporters!
#271
(2) Eliminate any AMA HQ event that isn't revenue neutral or better (Toledo, traveling used airplane sale, etc.)
(3) Use savings and expand grants for local flying sites to improve quality and/or reduce cost of joining
(4) Use savings to move NATS among various regions; opporutnity for more people to participate but also more spectators (i.e. potential members)
(5) Use savings to send more than over-priced wind up rubber planes to get kids interested
(6) Stop contributing member dues money to the Foundation. Latter either succeeds or fails on its own.
...this is just a start
Paragraph 2. That is just the monopoly that I am talking about. In your example for the LHS to sell you that Blade helicopter he would have had to drop down to a 10% above cost price. How would you expect any business to survive on that? Yes I do blame the consumers somewhat for that, like you most only care about price. Service means very little until the day you need it.
paragraph 3. I didn't say you HAD to do anything, I simply asked. It astounds me that somone such as you who served to protect my freedom of speech along with every other Americans now fights so hard to squash my freedom of speech. FACT! I have just the same right to experess my opinions here as you and your supporters!
#272
My Feedback: (29)
(1) Cut costs at HQ, target 50% savings.
(2) Eliminate any AMA HQ event that isn't revenue neutral or better (Toledo, traveling used airplane sale, etc.)
(3) Use savings and expand grants for local flying sites to improve quality and/or reduce cost of joining
(4) Use savings to move NATS among various regions; opporutnity for more people to participate but also more spectators (i.e. potential members)
(5) Use savings to send more than over-priced wind up rubber planes to get kids interested
(6) Stop contributing member dues money to the Foundation. Latter either succeeds or fails on its own.
...this is just a start
Having the traveling Nats was actually more expensive and always fell short on regional staff.
The online retailer was not Tower/HH. It was a LHS in another state, one that is still in business and doing well. Obviously that owner has found a way to compete. And service? How is expecting me to make multiple trips to pay more "service?"
Service, as in you realize you need a part on Friday when you have plans to fly Saturday. Service, when the item you purchased there doesn't work or fit and you can exchange it without occurring shipping costs and have to wait. Somewhere you can go to bounce ideas off other guys especially ones that has good knowledge of product availability.
You can speak to your hart's content. I think if you go back and look at what I actually wrote, I never said anything about you not speaking. I merely pointed out that I get to choose what I do and don't do. Read the actual words.
(2) Eliminate any AMA HQ event that isn't revenue neutral or better (Toledo, traveling used airplane sale, etc.)
(3) Use savings and expand grants for local flying sites to improve quality and/or reduce cost of joining
(4) Use savings to move NATS among various regions; opporutnity for more people to participate but also more spectators (i.e. potential members)
(5) Use savings to send more than over-priced wind up rubber planes to get kids interested
(6) Stop contributing member dues money to the Foundation. Latter either succeeds or fails on its own.
...this is just a start
Having the traveling Nats was actually more expensive and always fell short on regional staff.
The online retailer was not Tower/HH. It was a LHS in another state, one that is still in business and doing well. Obviously that owner has found a way to compete. And service? How is expecting me to make multiple trips to pay more "service?"
Service, as in you realize you need a part on Friday when you have plans to fly Saturday. Service, when the item you purchased there doesn't work or fit and you can exchange it without occurring shipping costs and have to wait. Somewhere you can go to bounce ideas off other guys especially ones that has good knowledge of product availability.
The fact when people do not share your views you do not speak to them as peers speaks volumes.
#273
I think that one of the problems regarding the promotion of the hobby could be the attitude of some clubs and long time participants in this hobby. I've been flying RC for decades but for a long while I worked away from home and never knew how much time I would have in one place to join a club, though I have been a member of the AMA. Several years ago I landed a position with a consulting company close to home and thought that I would like to join a local club, mainly to meet some fellow fliers and have a place to fly larger aircraft. There are two clubs in my area, one 40 miles away, another within 10 miles of my house. I contacted them both about membership. One gave me their meeting place and time and invited me to come to a meeting, and oh by the way be sure to bring my dues money if I wanted to fly. The other, the one further away invited me to a meeting to meet the other members and oh by the way, bring a plane to fly, whether you decide to join or not! Guess which club I am a member of. If there had only been the closer club with the attitude I received as a potential member I wouldn't be in a club at all.
I have flown at AMA club fields as a guest in areas where I was staying for work away from home and always donated something or at least offered to.
Some of the long time participants in this hobby are less than welcoming, I don't think it is the majority but it isn't far less than half in my experience.
I have flown at AMA club fields as a guest in areas where I was staying for work away from home and always donated something or at least offered to.
Some of the long time participants in this hobby are less than welcoming, I don't think it is the majority but it isn't far less than half in my experience.
#275
I understand what you are saying however the response to my query and comment about making sure I bring my money was from the club president. The club I joined is definitely a friendly group of people and accepting of all forms of Model aircraft. I definitely think I made the right choice! It's an unfortunate situation and first impressions definitely matter if we are talking about trying to promote the hobby as a fun activity that someone should become involved in. I have been involved in RC for a long time so it definitely didn't turn me away from being involved in the hobby however imagine if I were new and just interested in getting started in the hobby!
Last edited by jcmors; 12-29-2018 at 08:57 PM.